Deviate With Rolf Potts

"Success is often about finding just enough material wealth to fund the life that makes you happy." —Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Nomadic Network book club participants discuss how travel can intensify the attention you pay to life at home (2:30); how the best discoveries of travel can't be planned, and how you can give yourself permission to travel at all ages in life (10:30); how travel can give you perspective on the notion of "success" (22:00); what various book club participants have learned from (and discovered on) their travels (34:00); and the details of Rolf's annual Travel Memoir writing class in Paris (41:00). Notable Links: The Nomadic Network book club (online events with Rolf) Marco Polo Didn't Go There book club (Deviate episode) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Rolf's 2022 appearance on the Tim Ferriss Show (podcast) On Kawara (Japanese conceptual artist) Mallory Square (waterfront plaza in Key West) Oia (village on the Greek island of Santorini)

“Travel has become a way to remind myself how it feels to get lost, and then get unlost. It is a way to remember the discomfort of uncertainty and the unfamiliar. It’s an exercise in receiving the unexpected.”  –Kristin Van Tassel In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kristin discuss being in DC, living in Kansas, and Kristin's family trip to Mexico using migrant-economy buses (1:30); how seeking international restaurants and grocery stores at home can be a window into distant cultures (8:00); Kristin's motivation to learn Spanish in middle age, and how it connects to her perspective as a teacher (16:00); Kristin's harrowing experience of getting lost on a run in Nairobi in 1990, and how getting lost in a place is a way of experiencing it in a deeper way (20:30); how Kristin experienced the country and culture of Moldova through soups and salads while being hosted there by a former student (34:30); and how to stay open to being lost without compromising yourself, and embrace unfamiliar languages as a traveler

"Running back John Levi is about as easy to stop as a 200-pound eel. With his speed, and his shifting, sidestepping style of running, tacklers slide off of him like rain off a slicker." --From the Minneapolis Star, October 1923 In this episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about a 1927 football game between the New York Giants and an all-indigenous Oklahoma team called the Hominy Indians, and how the team's star player, John Levi, was the father of Rolf's junior high gym coach (0:00); John Levi's early years as a football player at Haskell Institute, and Haskell's games against teams like Baylor and Minnesota (5:00); Haskell's game against the Quantico Marines at Yankee Stadium, and how it led to John Levi being offered a baseball contract (10:30); how professional football was different in the 1920s than it is now (14:00); how Osage County, Oklahoma was in the midst of an oil boom in the 1920s (17:30) the specifics of the 1927 New York Giants versus Hominy Indians game (20:30); and how John Levi's legacy was embod

“For ancient Roman tourists, the whole point of travel was to go where everyone else was going. Sightseeing was a form of pilgrimage.” –Tony Perrottet In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tony discuss the habits idiosyncrasies of ancient Roman tourists, and how they relate to modern travel (1:30); the class tensions and expectations inherent in different types of modern and historical travelers, and how the "unexpected" affects these journeys (17:00); the appeal of Egypt to both ancient and modern tourists (22:30); how mythic ages can be a prism through which to see a place (33:00); how travel and geographical endeavor is an important task for a historian (44:30); and how the experience of travel has and hasn't changed over the years (55:30). Tony Perrottet (@TonyPerrottet) is the author of six books, including Pagan Holiday: On the Trail of Ancient Roman Tourists; The Sinner’s Grand Tour: A Journey Through the Historical Underbelly of Europe; and The Naked Olympics: The True Story of the Greek Games. Nota

“A willingness to fail is an important part of difficult beauty. Because difficult beauty will arrive first not as beauty at all.” –Chloe Cooper Jones In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe discuss the philosophical concept of "easy beauty" and "difficult beauty" in the context of travel (2:30); how our relationship to places changes over time with repeated exposure (15:00); how art and travel, home and adventure, became important aspects of Chloe's life (23:00); how the archetype of the "Hero's Journey" evokes aspects of home as well as travel (35:30); Chloe's investigation and experience of "dark tourism" in Cambodia, and how it gave her perspective on how other people view her disability (45:15) and how there's no easy way to navigate the polarities of the self, but trying to do so can result in a hard-won experience of beauty (1:08:00). Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a Whit

“Travel is one of the few activities we engage in not knowing the outcome and reveling in that uncertainty. Nothing is more forgettable than the trip that goes exactly as planned.” –Eric Weiner In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Eric discuss the tendency of travelers to idealize the very recent bygone past in places, and Rolf's experience of traveling by freighter ship (2:00); Eric's satisfaction in returning to places he's visited before, such as India, and how to remain open to uncertainty and surprise on the road (9:30); how conversations about travel differ from generation to generation, culture to culture, person to person (20:00); what it was like for Eric to have his book The Geography of Bliss adapted into a TV show, and the nuances behind the concept of "happiness" (28:30); how the experience of travel is inevitably intertwined with the experience of home (38:00); how luxury hotels can insulate you from the experience of a place, and how "adventure travel" is modern concept (43:30); and how Eric's

“Travel expands time, because you're not experiencing the everyday of what you normally do. It's all about discovery, and experiencing that with other people.” —Pegi Vail In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pegi talk about how she originally sought to depict a "visual ethnography" of world travelers, their global impacts, and their power as a "gentrifying" force (2:00); how the world of travel has (and hasn't) changed since Pegi made her film ten years ago, and how immigrants and migrant workers also represent travel communities just like backpackers and expats (11:00); the ways the notion of "journey" can serve as a metaphor for non-travel experiences, and how travel can expand one's sense of time (26:30); what stories travelers choose to tell about places, and how drug-scenes have fueled travel communitas over the years (31:00); the role digital photography now plays in travel, and the individualized notion of what an "explorer" is (39:30); and the importance of allowing yourself to get lost on that road,

"Why fly fourteen hours from New York to Johannesburg to see a South African version of Brooklyn? To me, the only reason to know what destinations are 'hot' is to avoid them." —Seth Kugel In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Seth talk about how the travel industry both helps and hinders the travel experience, and how Seth first experienced travel when he was young (1:30); tourist desire, the "beaten path," and the contradictions of what travelers seek in AirBnbs and related property-renting services (10:30); dealing with language barriers overseas, and social versus literal risks overseas (20:00); balancing general tourist advice versus nuanced insights as a travel writer, and the role new technologies play in travel decisions (27:00); and why it's a good idea to avoid places that have been deemed "trendy," and how to break out of the bad habits of travel (40:30). Seth Kugel (@sethkugel) is a travel writer, freelance journalist, and host of the Amigo Gringo YouTube channel. He was the Frugal Traveler column

“There’s no getting lost when you travel, because you’re already there. You’re already where you’re supposed to be, which is somewhere in this new place.” –Ari Shaffir In this episode of Deviate, which took place at New York City's KGB Bar, Rolf and Ari talk about the premise of Rolf's new book The Vagabond's Way (2:20); why it's important not to postpone one's dream travels to a seemingly more appropriate time of life, and how it's hard for your friends to appreciate and understand your travels when you get home (7:30); how to not let your smartphones and photographs get in the way of your best journey (15:00); how to best decide where to start on a journey, and why allowing yourself to get lost is sometimes the best way to find experiences a place (23:00); why the philosophical concept of "time wealth" is important to Rolf, and how travel allows you to express a unique feeling freedom (31:30); how the The Vagabond's Way is the "spiritual successor" to Vagabonding, and how Rolf keeps travel in conversation

“Travel is often one part geography and nine parts imagination.” –Kate Harris In this episode of Deviate Rolf and Kate discuss how travel can transform one's idea of what "exploration" is (3:00); the concept of borders (14:00); nostalgia and the transformational effect of travel (25:00); the role of home in relation to travel (34:00); and letting adventure into your life (44:00). Kate Harris (@kateonmars) is an adventure writer, named by Condé Nast Traveler as one of the “world’s most adventurous women.” Her work has appeared in Outside, The Walrus, and Georgia Review. Her book, Lands of Lost Borders, is a national bestseller For more about Kate, check out www.kateharris.ca Notable Links: Rolf’s Q&A with Kate Harris (book foreword) Silk Road (network of trade routes) Ernest Shackleton (explorer) Fridtjof Nansen (explorer) Annie Dillard (American author) Wind, Sand and Stars, by Antoine de Saint-Exupery (book) Henry David Thoreau (writer) My Journey to Lhasa, by Alexandra David-Neel (bo

“I didn't know where we were going, and I didn't know how long we were going to be gone. I brought no food, not even a bottle of water. When that boat left the dock, I felt so free. I threw off all these anxieties about control.” –Carl Hoffman In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Carl talk about the premise of The Lunatic Express, which took Carl around the world on a series of local buses, trains, planes, and ferries (2:30); how to overcome the common fears of traveling in this manner, and how tourism infrastructure isn't required for travel in places (9:30); how making yourself vulnerable to new places leaves you open to the people who live there (22:30); the role that simple conversation, smells, and open-ended activity plays in the lives of isolated communities (30:00); and Carl's advice for leaving yourself open to spontaneous travel experiences (40:00). Carl Hoffman (@lunaticcarl) is the author of four books, including The Lunatic Express, and Savage Harvest: A Tale of Cannibals, Colonialism, and Mich

“Eat what is put in front of you. They are not making fun of you. The rooster’s head floating in the soup really is given to the honored guest. If you insist on being a picky eater, stay home.” –Tim Cahill In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tim talk about the premise of Tim's classic essay "Professor Cahill’s Travel 101" (1:30); the importance of having a "quest" on a journey (8:00); how boredom can enhance the experience of travel, and why rest-days are important to a journey (15:00); why one should avoid whining (and compulsively talking about bowel movements) on group journeys (21:00); why packing too much gear -- and obsessively trying to save money on the road -- can be counterproductive to engaged travel (25:00); why it's important to be daring with trying new food on the road (40:00); and why bad travel experiences make for better stories than pleasant ones (45:00). Tim Cahill is a journalist, author, and pioneering travel writer. For more from Tim, check out his Rolling Stone and Outside archives,

“When you’re not sitting across from someone, you’re sitting across from the whole world.” –Stephanie Rosenbloom In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Stephanie talk about the rewards of traveling alone, and how to mix solo and companion travel within a single trip (2:00); how going alone makes you more receptive to museums, restaurants, and walking in a new play (11:00); how to better savor your travel experiences while they're happening (21:00); certifying versus savoring experiences, and how to balance travel as an external act with a more spiritual internal process (31:00); and strategies for savoring solo travel experiences (46:00). Stephanie Rosenbloom (@stephronyt) is a travel writer for The New York Times, where she has been a reporter for more than a decade, and the author of the book, Alone Time: Four Seasons, Four Cities, and the Pleasures of Solitude. For more about Stephanie, check out http://www.stephanierosenbloom.com. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) On Kar

"When you travel, you find out what it is you really want. You find out what you're capable of, what your ambitions are." –Paul Theroux In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Paul talk about how brotherly conflict is a time-honored trope in literature, and how travel can be a way to find your interests and ambitions in life (3:00); the ethical paradoxes and hypocrisies of global charities and industries in a resource-rich place like Africa (9:30); how writing fiction differs from writing nonfiction (19:00); and where Theroux is headed next (22:00). Paul Theroux (@PaulTheroux_) is a pioneer of travel writing and author of many highly acclaimed books, including The Great Railway Bazaar,  The Tao of Travel, and  On the Plain of Snakes. His newest novel is The Bad Angel Brothers. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Paul Theroux on the art of listening (Deviate episode) Paul Theroux on the inherent complexity of Mexico (Deviate episode) The Great Railway Bazaar, by Paul Theroux

“A travel journal helps you remember more than what you did and saw. It will helps you remember how you became the person you are today.” –Lavinia Spalding In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Lavinia talk about the section of Rolf's book The Vagabond's Way that touches on travel journaling, what what purposes a travel journal can serve (1:30); how journals give you perspective on the person you used to be, and how the journaling habit develops over time (9:00); strategies for being vulnerable and honest in a travel journal (15:00); strategies for being consistent with a journal on the road (19:00); employing non-visual senses and evoking less-than-ideal experiences to capture more subtle textures in a travel journal (25:30); how a journal gives you a pretext to approach and even interview people who interest you on the road (33:00); how to take notes in the field, how to maintain an ongoing relationship with old travel journals, and why travel journals serve to make a journey more meaningful (41:00). Lavin

"This is your one life. Think about it: If you dream of travel, it's not as hard as you might think. You can find ways to make it happen.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ernest talk about how "vagabonding" is defined, how Rolf has come to define home, and what the premise of The Vagabond's Way is (2:00); how Rolf researched and organized the quotes and anecdotes and philosophies that went into the book (10:00); how mistakes and misadventures are an inevitable part of the travel process, and how time is one's truest form of wealth (14:30); how the quiet experience of travel counts for more in life than travel that is performed for status (20:00); how no amount of planning can prepare you for the discoveries of each new day on the road, and how curiosity is more important than expertise on the road (27:30); how over-dependence on technology can compromise the novel experience of travel (33:30); advice for people leaving their country for the first time, advice for people traveling inside the

"I didn't go to Africa to "feel African," or become African. What I wanted to do was put myself in the shoes of the person I was traveling next to." --Eddy L. Harris In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Eddy discuss why Eddy's Africa travel book Native Stranger was not always well-received by America's cultural gatekeepers in 1992 (3:30); what is was like for Eddy to travel as a Black American in Africa in the 1990s, and how his experiences there became a book (12:30); how Africa has changed, and is changing (24:00); observations of Native Stranger that Rolf quoted in The Vagabond's Way, such as how to deal with beggars on the road (30:00); and Eddy's experiences being a Black American in France, and his core motivation for travel (37:00). Eddy Harris (@EddyLHarris) is a writer, filmmaker, and author of several books, including Mississippi Solo, Native Stranger, and Still Life in Harlem. Notable Links: Luxembourg Garden (park in Paris) South of Haunted Dreams, by Eddy L. Harris (travel book) Malcolm

"Naysayers can be the biggest obstacle for people who want to travel. Even if they know nothing about a place, they'll think of reasons why you shouldn't go there." --Ari Shaffir In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ari discuss how the experience of travel changes as you get older, what it's like to record an interview in public in Paris, and how loneliness compels you to be a better traveler (2:00); what it was like to workshop travel stories in class, and how writing for the page compares to writing for the comedy stage (12:00); Rolf quotes Ari from The Vagabond's Way about why it's OK to get lost when you travel, and what it's like when you wander out of tourist zones in another country (22:30); and how naysayers can preempt your travel ambitions if you listen to them (46:30). Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of the Skeptic Tank podcast. For more information on Ari, visit his website. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (travel writing class)

“At its best, travel is embraced not as a flashy backdrop for our lifestyle ambitions, but as an act that touches every aspect of our being.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf reads the introduction chapter from his latest book, The Vagabond's Way, which debuts on October 4th (and is available for preorder now from your favorite bookstore).

“I think sometimes as travel writers our most important job is to be a listener -- to listen to the stories that people are telling each other in a place.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ernest talk about why home is such an important place in one's life, even when one travels to more far-flung places (3:00); why the vagabonding ethos begins with the willingness to give oneself permission to travel in life, and how Rolf's new book, The Vagabond's Way, furthers the vagabonding ethos in a daily-reading format (15:00); the difficulty of figuring out which place in the world is your "favorite," and how food becomes a part of one's iconic travel memories (32:00); and why it helps to be confident and "ride tall in the saddle" if you sometimes feel out of place as a traveler (41:00). Ernest White II (@ernestwhiteii) is a storyteller, explorer, producer, and host of the television travel series Fly Brother, now in its second season on PBS and Create TV. Check out his subscription-based membership