Against The Rules With Michael Lewis

Constitutional lawyer and former US Solicitor Ted Olson recently died at the age of 84. Olson represented the state of New Jersey in its efforts to overturn a federal ban on sports gambling. Those efforts succeeded, as we hear in our episode "Welcome to the Garden State." But Olson and Michael Lewis talked about many other aspects of his vivid legal career. We're offering their full conversation today.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Michael Lewis heads to Las Vegas to explore the way sports betting used to work, up until the day it was rapidly legalized by states around the country. We meet the betting sharps who figured out what others couldn’t and set the odds for other bookies. That is, up until everyone seemed to have a casino on their smartphone. But the new online casino differs from the old ones in an important way: It doesn’t take all bets. For further reading:  Edward Thorp’s Beat the Dealer “Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Betting Ubiquitous” by  Eric Lipton and Kenneth P. VogelSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

As the US election nears, Michael Lewis sits down with Nate Silver, co-host of the Pushkin podcast Risky Business (along with the writer, psychologist and professional poker player Maria Konnikova). They talk about why people bet on elections, the problem with sports gamblers in the United States, and Silver’s new book, On the Edge: The Art of Risking Everything. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Is there a difference between fandom and religion? In Pittsburgh, it can be hard to tell. Fans of the city’s football team, the Pittsburgh Steelers, seem to have a cradle-to-grave devotion, complete with a golden relic, the “terrible towel.” Michael Lewis talks with sociologist Marci Cottingham, a native of Steeler Nation, about her work studying the religious overtones of fandom, and why the positive experiences of sports fans should get more scholarly attention. For further reading: Marci Cottingham’s Practical Feelings: Emotions as Resources in a Dynamic Social WorldSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It may seem like sports gambling got legalized overnight in the US. But it was in fact a winding road to get there. Michael Lewis speaks with legal historian and University of Chicago professor Alison L. LaCroix about all the factors that led to the Supreme Court overturning, in 2018, a federal law called the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act. And they explore why, in some eras of US history, the Court tends to lean towards “states rights” arguments. For further reading: Alison LaCroix’s The Interbellum Constitution: Union, Commerce, and Slavery in the Age of FederalismsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

How did we get from fantasy sports to legalized sports betting? The path is convoluted, but most of it winds through New Jersey. Michael Lewis speaks with former governor Chris Christie, among other Jersey politicians, as well as lobbyists for the gaming industry. Plus we hear from Ted Olsen, the lawyer who kept bringing the Garden State’s constitutional challenge until it finally reached the Supreme Court — and hit a jackpot. For further reading: Albert Chen’s Billion Dollar Fantasy Murphy v. NCAA ESPN timeline of how sports betting was legalized SCOTUS Blog: The Tenth Amendment, Anti-Commandeering and Sports BettingSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bill Bradley was already famous in college as the epitome of certain American virtues: integrity, honesty, and athleticism. As an NBA star, he took those virtues to the big leagues. As a US Senator, he had a chance to codify some of them into law and prevent the rise of sports betting. But at the same time, others in Bradley's state were making huge money on this illicit form of gambling. For further reading: John McPhee’s A Sense of Where You Are American Bettors Voice, non-profit advocacy for sports bettors co-founded by Gadoon “Spanky” Kryollos. Bill Bradley’s Values of the Game David Hill's The Vapors: Southern Family, the New York Mob, and the Rise and Fall of Hot Springs, America's Forgotten Capital of Vice Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act of 1992.https://www.congress.gov/bill/102nd-congress/senate-bill/474See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sports fans experience incredible highs and lows, and spend loads of money on a product over which they have no control. But for a long time, no one bothered to study the minds or impulses of fans. Michael Lewis finds out how that's changing as writers and academics learn more about the powerful psychology of fandom. Just in time for technology to exploit fandom more than ever. For further reading:  Eric Simons’ book The Secret Lives of Sports Fans Research by Murray State University psychology professor Daniel Wann on fandom: https://murraystate.academia.edu/DanielWann The Henry Tajfel Experiments  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Against the Rules is going to Vegas (by way of New Jersey!). Host Michael Lewis bets high and low to find out how Americans, and their state governments, got addicted to a new form of legalized gambling. This season, we’ll meet bookies, lobbyists, lawyers and professional sharps. All in their own ways trying to figure out why fans might hitch their life savings to their favorite team’s performance. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sam Bankman-Fried was sentenced to 25 years in prison after being convicted of fraud and conspiracy. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean Kott were there in court. They talk about what happened with Judging Sam’s legal expert, Rebecca Mermelstein, a former federal prosecutor and partner at O'Melveny and Myers.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

While Sam Bankman-Fried has been on trial, the cryptocurrency exchange he founded, FTX, has been going through bankruptcy proceedings. Jonathan Lipson, a professor at Temple Law School, tells Michael Lewis that he believes the proceedings have highlighted problems with the US bankruptcy system.  Jonathan Lipson’s research paper “FTX’d: Conflicting Public and Private Interests in Chapter 11” is forthcoming in the Stanford Law Review. You can read a draft here.  You can listen to our previous interview about the FTX bankruptcy with Jonathan’s co-author, David Skeel, here. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This fall we covered the trial of Sam Bankman-Fried, the founder of the failed cryptocurrency exchange FTX. He was found guilty of fraud and conspiracy and could face decades in prison. Now, we are covering his sentencing. Check here for those episodes starting the week of March 25th.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Enjoy this episode of Freakonomics Radio, where Michael Lewis sat down with Stephen Dubner to discuss his book “Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon.” Description from the original episode:Lewis got incredible access to Sam Bankman-Fried, the billionaire behind the spectacular FTX fraud. His book is a bestseller, but some critics say he went too easy on S.B.F. Lewis tells us why the critics are wrong — and what it’s like to watch your book get turned into a courtroom drama.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Enjoy this episode from another Pushkin Industries podcast, Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso. Upon taking a walk with crypto billionaire Sam Bankman-Fried, writer Michael Lewis had a sense that there might be a story here. In the intervening two years, that story has taken a series of twists and turns, resulting in Lewis’ new book Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon. At the top, we walk through Bankman-Fried’s Manhattan trial, the subject at the center of this winding story, and why Lewis was first interested in observing him. Then, he unpacks Bankman-Fried’s belief in effective altruism, his probabilistic approach to trading, and how his Stanford law professor parents shaped his thinking. On the back-half, we discuss the ten-day period of FTX’s collapse, the scene in the Bahamas as Bankman-Fried filed for bankruptcy, and why Lewis felt a kinship with Sam’s parents in that moment. To close, Michael reflects on his own journalistic tendencies and how he managed to write this book in the aftermath of gr

Lidia Jean Kott talks to journalist Elizabeth Lopatto about what it was like to cover the trial, the similarities it shared with Elizabeth Holmes’ trial, and what this all says about millennials, fraud, and the future of the tech industry.  This conversation was recorded on November 13. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's all over. Sam Bankman-Fried was found guilty on all seven counts. But what now? Michael Lewis, Lidia Jean Kott, and Judging Sam’s legal expert, O’Melveny defense attorney Rebecca Mermelstein, reflect on the outcome and look ahead to sentencing, SBF's other legal troubles, and the fate of the cooperating witnesses. This conversation was recorded on November 7. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The jury, after about 4 and a half hours of deliberation, has delivered its verdict – guilty on all seven counts. Lidia Jean Kott was in the courtroom when it happened. Her conversation with financial reporter Jacob Goldstein was recorded on November 2. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

CORRECTION: In an earlier version of this episode, our guest incorrectly stated that in the case of a hung jury, a defendant cannot be retried without risking double jeopardy. This is incorrect. If the jury hangs, then the defendant can be retried. We have edited the episode to remove this and apologize for the error. It’s nearly time for the jury to begin their deliberations. They’ll file into a backroom at the courthouse, and SBF’s fate will be in their hands. But what goes on behind those doors? How will the jury get to its verdict? Trial consultant Ellen Leggett returns to the show to talk through the process with Lidia Jean Kott. This conversation was recorded on October 27 and updated on November 1. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for pri

We're finally in the home stretch. Today the prosecution finished their cross examination of Sam Bankman-Fried, the defense followed up with a redirect, and then both sides rested. It’s Michael’s last day at court, but Lidia Jean will attend until the bitter end. They sit down to talk through the trial day’s events. This conversation was recorded on October 31. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sam Bankman-Fried finishes direct and faces withering cross-examination by the government’s chief prosecutor, Danielle Sassoon. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean Kott share notes during lunch, then Lidia Jean sits down with Pushkin financial reporter and host Jacob Goldstein to talk through the day’s events. This conversation was recorded on October 30. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.